Curiosity, with Dr. Diane Hamilton

Dr. Diane Hamilton is an award-winning speaker and nationally syndicated radio show host based in Arizona, USA. She writes and speaks on business, leadership, emotional intelligence and curiosity, career, and education, and she is the author of several popular books including her latest title, Cracking the Curiosity Code. On this episode of Eudaemonia, Kim Forrester connects with Diane to explore the concept of curiosity, and to learn why it’s easier to achieve our goals when we actively seek out our discomfort zone.

Transcript

Kim Forrester:   0:00
Each of us is born with an innate sense of wonder, and an instinctive yearning to learn more about the world we live in. Yet how many of us retain that same unbridled inquisitiveness into adulthood? Welcome to the Eudaemonia podcast. I'm Kim Forrester and, today, we're going to explore the incredible concept called curiosity.  

Intro:   0:24
Welcome to Eudaemonia, the podcast that is all about flourishing. Plug in, relax and get ready for the goodness as we explore the traits and practises that can help you thrive in life ... with your host, Kim Forrester.  

Kim Forrester:   0:44
Dr Diane Hamilton as an award-winning speaker and nationally syndicated radio show host based in Arizona, USA. She writes and speaks on business, leadership, emotional intelligence and curiosity, career, and education, and she is the author of several popular books including her latest title, Cracking the Curiosity Code. It's my pleasure to be connecting with Diane, today, to explore the concept of curiosity and to learn why it's easier to achieve our goals when we actively seek out our discomfort zone. Diane Hamilton, it is such a delight to have you with me here on the Eudaemonia podcast. How are things with you today in Arizona? 

Diane Hamilton:   1:24
Everything's great. We're having beautiful weather. Thank you for having me, Kim. I was really looking forward to this.

Kim Forrester:   1:30
Let's start with your book. Fascinating book. In it, you explain that curiosity is present in non-human animals, as well. I love this. And you say that scientists have apparently found what they call a curiosity gene. Can you perhaps explain more about this genetic disposition for curiosity and how it affects our brains and our bodies?

Diane Hamilton:   1:53
Well, you know, we all are born super-curious. Like you said, animals have it. The Max Planck Institute coined the term the 'curiosity gene' because, without curiosity, we wouldn't exist. Think about a bird - if it's flying around a bush and it runs out of berries, if it wasn't curious enough to go look at the next bush, then it's not going to live very long. So we're all that way. We need to explore. We need to get out of just that everyday status-quo thinking, or you cease to thrive. So something I found really fascinating, because children are super, super curious when they're young, and then around age five, it starts to peak and it starts to decline. And the same thing happens with creativity and a lot of things within us. And I was very curious as to why that happens, so that's what led to my interest in studying curiosity.

Kim Forrester:   2:48
That's fascinating - that we start losing it at around the age of five because that's precisely when, in our modern society, we're sent off to school to learn. So just as we're sent off to sort of gain the knowledge that we're supposed to gain, we start losing the curiosity. Do you feel that there's a link there somewhere?

Diane Hamilton:   3:06
In my research, I found some of the things that are inhibiting to us, and one of them's environment. And, you know, as you get into school, it's impossible for teachers to answer every single question. When you're at home, parents can do the "Why? Why? Why?" thing all day long. But when you've got 35 students, or how many students, you know, there's a lot of that impact. And even as you age ... I don't know if you've seen Sir Ken Robinson's famous Ted talk, but he talks about how schools kill creativity. And he talks about it, even in the higher education arena, that you start to want to have graduate degrees, and it's all science- and math-based. And some of this stuff that we want to go back to, we've kind of educated ourselves out of it, due to the times of what we needed to have people do in terms of their skills. You know, if we needed people doing manufacturing or whatever it was, we made it. But so, now we need people to be more creative and curious. So I think we're going to see much more of a directed attempt to improve curiosity. I know I work with some major organisations that are really focused on that.

Kim Forrester:   4:15
Now, I know that our brains literally reward us for curiosity - that's how important it is to our existence, our evolution, correct? This kind of indicates, then, that there is a powerful biological reason for curiosity to exist. What do you feel that we gain from being curious creatures, other than being able to attain, you know, tertiary qualifications and become experts in certain topics? What do we gain from being curious? 

Diane Hamilton:   4:44
Well, you know, I know there's so many things that we need to gain, that I look at in organisations. And as I started to write the book, I started to understand that curiosity ties into so many of the things that we hope to achieve. So let's say you're baking a cake, okay? And let's say you have flour and eggs and oil and whatever it is you need to mix the ingredients, right, to make this cake. You put it together. You put it in the pan, you put it in the oven. What happens? Well, if you didn't turn on the oven, nothing happens, right? You get goo. Okay, and so, with the workplace, if their cake that they're trying to bake is this productivity - is their cake - but they're taking the ingredients of motivation, and creativity, and innovation, and engagement and all the things they're trying to accomplish, they're mixing all these things together, and they're getting goo - because nobody's turned on the oven with curiosity. And so when you say, what does it help with? Well, that's what it helps with - all those things. Everything you could think of that people are struggling with in the workplace right now - innovation, engagement, you know, productivity, you know, just everything - because if you get into status-quo thinking, you're just doing the same thing over and over again.

Kim Forrester:   6:08
So I guess the trick is - and this occurs in life as well, obviously, not just in the workplace - but at some point, it's about consciously stopping and asking 'why', right? Why am I doing this? What is the purpose behind this? Is that something that you would kind of encourage people to do more often?

Diane Hamilton:   6:25
Right. And it's not just 'why', it's 'why not'. You know, why are we doing it? Say, why aren't we doing it this way? You know, it's all the questions of exploration. And, you know, a lot of companies ... there's a lot of good examples of companies who realise the value of this. I gave one in the book of a hospital in England, where they were having problems with people dying as they were transporting from one location to the next after surgery. And they just could not make it any better. They went through all the things they thought they could do. And then one night the leaders were watching a Formula One race car event, saw the ... the Ferrari team took apart the car, put it back together: seven seconds, perfect. And they were thinking, 'Well, how can they do that? And we can't do this.' So they actually invited the team back to the hospital to watch what they did, and they gave three simple suggestions of things - such as to communicate better, and different things - and they really have made a marked improvement on their transfer procedures. So it's because we think we have to stay within our cubicle, or within our silo, or within our organisation, or, within our industry, that we're not thinking that you really need to look everywhere.

Kim Forrester:   7:35
So let's go there, because you actually say that one of the most important things we should understand about curiosity is the list of things that prevent us from being curious. And we're kind of touching on that now. So, you list four curiosity roadblocks in your book. And for me, three of these roadblocks - we've got fear, assumptions and social pressures - they seem pretty straightforward to me. I think we can sort of work our way through those. But you list the fourth restricting factor as technology, and that really surprised me, Diane. How can technology prevent us from fully engaging our curiosity?

Diane Hamilton:   8:10
Well, you know, you bring up the four factors and it's the acronym of FATE to remember them more easily. And they are fear, assumptions, technology, and environment. And, as you mention, fear is pretty straightforward. Assumptions is really that voice in your head; what you tell yourself. And then environment, we've touched on a lot with education, but there's so much more. It's everybody you've actually had contact with in your life, basically. But technology was a surprise to me as well. But technology, we either over- or under-utilise it sometimes. And if you don't have the foundation behind why a calculator works - you may have been the greatest mathematician of all times, but you rely on your calculator, right. You know, but you've never really learned what's behind it. So I think, a lot of what we see in the workplace is a lot of people over-relying on technology and not understanding the basics behind it. Because the basics build that real logic sense of why things happen this way. And anybody who has learnt programming, you learn logic and you learn so many different things. I don't think we all need to be programmers, but I think it would really help to know a lot more about why things work the way they do. And I think we could have 'low tech' days where we don't rely on it too much, you know, and learn about the basics. I mean, in some generations they're terrified of it so they stay away from it. And they could be learning so many more things and applying technology to so many more things. So, you know, that's the underutilisation of it. We may be just terrified and think, 'I can't figure this out. It's just too much. This is overwhelming.' And then we're getting, you know, kind of a crossover to the assumptions in our head of the things we tell ourselves - that, you know, 'It's just too much. The last time I learned it, then they just got a new version of it and then I had to learn it again.' You know? And then you get wrapped up in those assumptions. So some of these things overlap to some extent, which can lead to fear, of course. And then, 'No, I don't want to do that. It's too hard. I can't.' You know? And so what was interesting to me was coming up with the questions that are so critical to ask to uncover some of these things that are holding us back. Because once we can get this down in front of us, in this report, the Curiosity Code Index I created, it gives you, you know, 'Here's the things that are holding you back.' And so now you can create an action plan - it helps you to do that - and create these smart, measurable goals, plans, to just baby step your way to becoming more curious.

Kim Forrester:   10:42
So it's actually a capacity that you feel we can strengthen; we can train and enhance?

Diane Hamilton:   10:47
Yeah, and I definitely think you're going to see a lot more companies focusing on this. I've been working with Novaris and Verizon, and big names, that the leaders are just saying, 'This is what we want for our core culture. We know, to be innovative, we have to get over this wanting to control everybody's thoughts and let them explore and ask questions. And we have to model this behaviour as leaders and say, you know, we're vulnerable. We can ask questions we don't know the answers to. And we can say, "This is what we want to see in you".' Because, unless leaders model what they want their culture to be, it's not going to happen.

Kim Forrester:   11:26
So can curiosity help us develop other useful traits? Perhaps creativity, perhaps innovation? Are there other traits as well that curiosity will help us enhance? 

Diane Hamilton:   11:37
Well, it definitely leads to those types of traits. I've had experts on my show who are creativity experts, or, I've had so many amazing people from Harvard and other universities talk about this. And every time I ask them 'What comes first?' when they talk about motivation, or drive, or innovation, or creativity, they all say curiosity. So it definitely would be the Step One before you go up into these other steps. And it was interesting to me, because my next research, my next book, is on perception. And when I was looking at perception, curiosity tied in a lot to that. Because to truly understand people from your perception of how they see you, and how you see them, and the whole way people intercommunicate, you have to be curious and ask questions. As you ask questions, you develop empathy, which is a huge part of emotional intelligence. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on emotional intelligence and empathy is so critical for communication because you are able to understand what other people need, from their perspective. So that all tied into perception. Which was interesting to me because perception basically included - not just like IQ and EQ - but, you know, in cultural quotients as well; CQ. And then curiosity quotients: CQ, too, or whatever you want it for a 'Q'. But I think that curiosity ties into so much more that you're going to be hearing much more about.

Kim Forrester:   13:02
Let's turn the question on its head, then. So you were saying that the experts kind of say curiosity comes first. But, Diane, are there other traits or characteristics that we ought to strengthen in order to become more curious? It seems to me that some people might not be curious, or at least engage their curiosity, because they're afraid of being wrong or they're afraid of stepping into their discomfort zone. So if we become braver or more resilient, do you think that that would actually help us become more curious?

Diane Hamilton:   13:29
Well, yes, definitely. That's the F in FATE: what holds us back - the fear. And fear is definitely the thing I thought I'd hear the most of when I started researching this, because nobody wants to look stupid. Nobody wants to ask that question in a meeting that makes you look like you're unprepared or you're dumb or whatever it is that people are worried about. Right? So, yes, you know, you have to work on these issues of fear in terms of what holds you back because that will definitely help you become more curious. Once you realise that no question is really a dumb question... The problem is, a lot of leaders have set up this sense - from what they've heard works in the past as leaders - and some of it doesn't work. For example, 'Don't come to me with problems unless you have solutions.' Well, if you say that as a leader, it sounds really good because you think you're going to get rid of the whiners and the people who just like to complain and not give you any solutions. But you're actually saying, 'If you don't know how to solve it, don't tell me about it.' So, and then you're cutting off people asking and being curious and wanting to help, but that maybe they're not qualified to help. So, it's not that leaders had this bad intention - everybody's trying to do their best - but we really sometimes inadvertently shut people down.

Kim Forrester:   14:44
There's a standard out there, I think, that can be expected of others. It's almost like an intellectual perfection, right, where some people can expect you to have all the answers or you believe yourself that you're supposed to have all the answers. And curiosity is the antithesis to that - it's about knowing that you don't know everything and asking the questions.

Diane Hamilton:   15:03
Right, and that comes back to that vulnerability. A lot of leaders don't like to show they don't know everything, and they have to be that puffed up fish, you know, that tries to look bigger than they are. But, you know, I think we're seeing a lot less of that than we used to see, and I think that it can be challenging for people to let go of that need to look like they know everything. I've met really great leaders. The guy who wrote the forward for my book is Keith Krach, who used to be the chairman and CEO of DocuSign and now is undersecretary in Washington. But he is one of the more impressive leaders I've ever met because he just acts so humble. And this guy's super genius, you know, bright guy. But he doesn't act like that. He acts like, 'Yeah, well, I surround myself with really great people who know really big things.' And, you know he knows everything that he should know but he comes across as humble. And I think that that can be really important when you're surrounding yourself with people - to listen to their ideas. And he obviously listened and created these billion-dollar companies - multiple billion-dollar companies - and he's a huge success because of it. And I think we need to model ourselves after that. Because I've had people on my show talk about leaders fearing looking stupid; fearing people are going to figure out that they don't know as much as they should know. And there isn't a 'should know' necessarily. I mean it's subjective and it changes. And I think that we have to understand that, as leaders, we set the culture for the company and if we're going to be faking it and pretending, then everybody else is going to be doing the same thing.

Kim Forrester:   16:45
And, once again let's bring that back to our personal lives. If we expect that from our friends; if we ridicule our friends or our acquaintances when they don't know something, when they ask a question, we're going to create that same kind of unhealthy environment, right? 

Diane Hamilton:   16:59
Well, yeah. You know, the environment is such an interesting aspect of this because we touched on FATE, you know, in general - the fear and the technology. But the environment part of the FATE equation, it's just everybody. You know? We know ... we talked about the school impact. We know family members, sometimes, 'Hey, you're expected to be a lawyer, a doctor or whatever, in the family.' You know, 'We've always owned the family business', or whatever. So you get directed by people; you get influenced by your leaders. You get even influenced by social media. If you post something, and people don't like it then, 'Well, I'll take it down' because, you know, it's not the thing. And there's so much pressure to think and act specific ways. And so I think that that's a real challenge. I mean, think of how much your siblings impact you. You know? 'Well, that's a stupid thing to study', or 'That's a stupid thing that ...' You know what I mean? Everybody's got pressures from every angle. And that leads to the A - the FATE part of A, which is our assumptions; that voice in your head. And think of it like this. Okay, sometimes when you talk about assumptions and the voice in your head, I hold up a glass of water in front of the crowd and I say, 'How heavy is this water?' And this is like the cake thing, where you've got to remember this is coming back to curiosity. So they'll yell out, oh, I don't know, 'Eight ounces, ten ounces', or whatever they yell out. And I say, 'Well, you know, it doesn't really matter. It's how long I hold it, is how heavy it's going to be for me. If I hold it for a minute, it might not bother me. If I hold onto it for an hour, my arm starts to get tired, and if I hold onto it for a day, my arm feels paralysed. So that's how our thoughts are. Our assumptions are like these thoughts that go over and over and over in our head. If they're just fleeting thoughts, no big deal. After an hour - we're obsessing over it, you know - it starts to be more problematic. And then the longer we hold on to it, we can become paralysed by them. And so, as we think about the things, 'Oh, I would never be good at that' or 'That won't ever interest me', or 'I took that in the past and the teacher made it boring' - you know, the wealth of things we tell ourselves - it's recognising that you're telling yourself these things that will help you overcome them.

Kim Forrester:   19:11
Wow. Self-awareness. So important in so many facets of our life.  

Kim Forrester:   19:15
Emotional intelligence, again.  

Kim Forrester:   19:18
So Diane, there are a gazillion things in the universe that we could learn about; that we could go and question and explore. Do you think it's possible to get curiosity fatigue or curiosity overwhelm?

Diane Hamilton:   19:34
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a time when you have to be very specific and goal-oriented when you figure out you know the things you want to work on. You could get curious about Candy Crush and never get out of it. You know? We don't want that. We want productive curiosity that we know is going to lead somewhere. I mean, it's nice to have time to have your mind go mindless and something like that. But at work, we're talking about being very focused and having goals. And that's part of the Curiosity Code Index - is creating action plans that are measurable, and very specific things that you could do to help you develop your level of curiosity. I mean, of course, you're not going to be able to know everything. Just, you know, there is information overload and you have to be reasonable when you set goals and have them be in line with what potentially possible in a day. But everybody has their different potentials. So what may seem overwhelming to me may not be overwhelming to you, or vice versa. And that's why I think these discussions are so important. When I train organisations, or when I train HR professionals and consultants to train organisations -  I do both - we have these sessions where we whiteboard all this stuff. You know? And people can connect with, 'Yeah, I feel that', and, 'I understand that and this is what I would find problematic.' And as they start to do their personal action plan, they really get an idea that 'This isn't just me, everybody else feels like this.' And so I really get all these great ideas, and from the feedback in the room, and it's really productive. And then, once they've gone through their personal action plan, then we go on and create a business plan for the leaders based on, 'Okay, so now we know how to fix our own individual levels of curiosity and we've got this action plan that we've created, we're going to create a plan for you guys from us, to kind of help you.' And I base this on some companies like, say Disney, for example, had a problem with turnover in their laundry division, for example. And you think everything is all great and glorious at Disney but somebody has to iron linens and be down in the lovely part of the bowls of the organisation. Right? So it's not exactly the most glamorous job in the world, and they were having high turnover. And as fun as it sounds to iron sheets, they couldn't hold on to a lot of these people. And they started to think, 'Well, what can we do to make this better?' So they went to them and asked the employees, 'What can we do to make your job better?' And they truly thought they were going to get things that they can't possibly fix - that 'maybe this is just part of the job' kind of things. But really, they didn't. They got great ideas from the employees. They got things like 'Put an air vent over my workstation. Make my table go up and down so my back doesn't hurt so much.' Whatever things. And they were able to do those kinds of things. They go, 'Yeah, we can fix that!'. And they really improved their turnover because they were able to do that. But they were able to do that because they asked these questions. And that's what we do in the second part of this training that I do because we're asking all these questions. Okay, so leadership wants to fix emotional intelligence and/or critical thinking or innovation. Or, you know, you go through the list of all the things that are the problems for the organisation. You're going to the horse's mouth just like Disney did. How can we help you be more curious to fix this problem? And then we whiteboard all those things. Right? And then you get all these things as a big compilation - a huge report - that we give back to leadership and go, 'Here. This is like what Disney did. This is all your answers to all your problems.' So basically your employees are giving all the answers to the HR professionals or the consultant, or whoever is training them, and giving it to leaders. And then leaders - it's up to them to decide, you know, what works and what doesn't.

Kim Forrester:   23:29
So it's really about taking this sort of nebulous idea of curiosity - this incredible tool that we have in our brains - and narrowing that focus down so it's like a light sabre, right? And you're just cutting through to the information that you most need, to create or innovate, right?

Diane Hamilton:   23:46
And it seems like such a common thing - that we talk about curiosity so often - that you know what's so interesting? When I started to write the book ... well, I started to write the book because, on my radio show, I interview all these billionaires and geniuses. And I'm like, 'Wow, these guys are super curious. This is great.' And I still teach at quite a few universities. I've taught more than a thousand business courses, and I've had a lot of students, and I found a lot of them really wanted you to give them the fish, instead of teaching them to fish. And I wanted to instil that curiosity in them. So, as I started to interview people, I thought, 'Well, I want to write a book about curiosity because it's just so interesting to me that people aren't curious.' So as I started to write the book, I started to look for the assessments that, you know, measure what kept people from being curious. And there wasn't anything out there. There's just curiosity assessments that tell you how curious you are. So let's say I have low curiosity, then what do you do? And I'm like, 'Well, that doesn't help me. It  just tells me I don't have it.' So, I found that really fascinating, and I spent years researching people to find out what it is that held them back so that I could create my own assessment. I had gotten into assessments from studying emotional intelligence in my doctoral dissertation process, and I was very interested in how you can assess things. And I thought, 'Well, of course you can assess this. You've just got to figure out how to do it.' So it took me a few years research and thousands of people later, and then that's what led to the Curiosity Code Index - so that we could actually get this information and we can find out what's holding us back.

Kim Forrester:   25:17
So let's go back to you as a child because you say that it was actually boredom that drove you to be curious and creative as a child. Right? In your experience, do you think that there are particular signs in our lives that kind of indicate that it's time for us to get more curious? It may be boredom. Do you feel that maybe dissatisfaction or discontent can be signs that it's time to engage our curiosity?

Diane Hamilton:   25:43
I think a lot of people have, you know, when you're a kid, you have different experiences. For me, I was five years younger than my next oldest sibling - I was the baby - so I was kind of alone a lot. And then my father was born blind and my mom took care of the home. And so, she was busy doing that and my father, really, was the one that had a big influence on my sense of curiosity because everything was a game to him. At the dinner table we played school, we did all these things all the time. So I was always taught to ask a lot of questions. Because we were encouraged to do all these, like, curious kinds of things, I guess I did get bored easily compared to other people. And I think some people don't get bored as easily, maybe. You know, I think that there is personality involved in all of this. Anybody who has had more than one kid will tell you, they're completely different right from the beginning. And we're not going to get everybody at the same level of curiosity. You're not going to all be, you know, Bill Gates and want to solve, like, the Microsoft problem, kind of thing. But we can all improve. We could all become more engaged. I really think engagement's one of the biggest factors that's tied to what I'm trying to do with this, with not just innovation. Those two are probably the top two.

Kim Forrester:   26:58
In your work, you focus on business and career success, but some of my listeners might not necessarily be inspired by that kind of achievement. Can curiosity help us achieve goals in other ways; in other facets of our lives? 

Diane Hamilton:   27:12
You know, everybody's got their different motivations for what makes them happy and what makes them driven. And for some people, it might be money. For some people, it might be something else. But that's why we have to ask these questions. You know, 'I'm really passionate about picture taking', or 'I'm really passionate about something that has nothing to do with money, changing the world by saving children.' You know, I have had the guy on my show that created Charity Water, and that made him completely passionate to do that. You don't know what it is until you start asking these questions and start focusing on just, 'Why am I sitting here watching the faucet drip all day when I could be out really living?' I think a lot of people just exist, and that causes you to be disengaged. You're just ... 'Time to make the doughnuts' was a commercial when I was a kid; a Dunkin Donut commercial. A guy who got up every day and said the same thing, 'Time to make the doughnuts.' His life was just making the doughnuts and nothing else. There's a lot of people that do that every day - they just get up, they do the same thing, they go to bed. They're just kind of walking dead. And that's what's happening. So I mean, you've got to find the things that fit your passions. And to do that, you have to ask questions.

Kim Forrester:   28:23
You have to start with the 'why', and the 'why not'. I love that.  

Diane Hamilton:   28:26
Yeah.  

Kim Forrester:   28:26
Diane, my final question is one that I ask every guest on the Eudaemonia podcast. Can you offer a simple morning reminder - so this might be a practice, a mantra, perhaps a little ritual - something that can help my listeners activate their curiosity on a daily basis?

Diane Hamilton:   28:43
Well, I think if you just keep the word FATE in your mind and just think - I mean the acronym, I should say - FATE  in your mind; of the words fear, assumptions, technology, environment. What one thing can you overcome fear-wise today? If you've hesitated doing something because it sounded a little scary, what's one baby step that you could do to overcome something to do with fear? And analyse - if you're doing any kind of meditation or self-reflection - what thoughts are coming in your head that are saying,  'I'm not going to like this. This is driving me crazy', or whatever it is. And then try to think of an alternative way to overcome that issue. And then, technology: maybe have one day - if it was a high tech day yesterday, maybe a low tech day today. And try to learn the basics behind it and find out ways to get a little bit more tech-savvy or less reliant, on every other day. And then, in your environment, consider who influenced you recently. Who is telling you something that might be holding you back? Maybe they don't have all the answers, because no one does.

Kim Forrester:   29:51
Those tips just seem so profound and really powerful. Thank you so much. Diane, if people want to know more about you and your amazing new book, which is called Cracking the Curiosity Code, where can people find you?

Diane Hamilton:   30:03
Well, my website is just my name: www.drdianehamilton.com. If you go there, you can get to my show; my everything else. But you can also just go right to the curiosity information at www.curiositycode.com. But either one, you can get to the curiosity information from my main website. You can follow me on all the social media sites @DrDianeHamilton. If they take the Curiosity Code Index, again, that's at www.curiositycode.com, they'll get a twenty-six page pdf - kind of similar to taking DISC or emotional intelligence tests, where it takes maybe ten minutes and they get their results. And it tells you how to create your action plan, and it's a really good start to improving curiosity.

Kim Forrester:   30:43
Diane, that sounds amazing. What a great way for us all to, sort of, engage greater curiosity and start asking questions of ourselves and of our lives. I love that so much. I am just so delighted to have had you on the Eudaemonia podcast. A truly fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Diane Hamilton:   31:00
Well, it was really my honour, Kim. You just have a wonderful show, and I was really looking forward to our chat. And great questions. Thank you.

Kim Forrester:   31:07
Thank you. Eleanor Roosevelt once said, 'I think, at a child's birth, if a mother could ask a fairy godmother to endow it with the most useful gift, that gift should be curiosity.' You have been listening to the Eudaemonia podcast. If you'd like to learn more about how to live a truly flourishing life, please subscribe and check out www.eudaemoniapod.com for more inspiring episodes. I'm Kim Forrester. Until next time, be well, be kind to yourself and ignite your curiosity.