Dr. Elise Bialylew is author of the bestselling mindfulness meditation book, The Happiness Plan and she’s the founder of Mindful in May, the world’s largest online global mindfulness campaign. On this episode, Kim Forrester chats with Elise about the incredible benefits of mindfulness and learns how we can each enjoy more ‘presence’ in our daily lives.
This episode is made with love and without expectation. If you like what you hear, you may consider supporting Kim's work at buymeacoffee.com.
Dr. Elise Bialylew is author of the bestselling mindfulness meditation book, The Happiness Plan and she’s the founder of Mindful in May, the world’s largest online global mindfulness campaign. On this episode, Kim Forrester chats with Elise about the incredible benefits of mindfulness and learns how we can each enjoy more ‘presence’ in our daily lives.
This episode is made with love and without expectation. If you like what you hear, you may consider supporting Kim's work at buymeacoffee.com.
Is your mind firmly focused on what's happening around you right here, right now? Or, like most people, are you constantly distracted by thoughts, concerns, and imaginings? Welcome to the Eudaemonia podcast. I'm Kim Forrester and today we're going to explore what it means to be mindful.
Intro :Welcome to Eudaemonia, the podcast that is all about flourishing. Plug in, relax and get ready for the goodness as we explore the traits and practices that can help you thrive in life ... with your host, Kim Forrester.
Kim Forrester :Dr. Elise Bialylew is author of the best selling mindfulness meditation book, The Happiness Plan, and she's the founder of Mindful in May, the world's largest online global mindfulness campaign. Trained in psychiatry, Elise fuses her psychological understanding with the deep study of meditation, to coach people and organisations around the world to reach their full potential. It's a pleasure to be chatting with Elise today about the incredible benefits of mindfulness, and to learn ways we can each enjoy more presence in our daily lives. Elise Bialylew, it is just such a delight to have you on the Eudaemonia podcast. How are things in Melbourne today?
Elise Bialylew :Yeah. Things are, you know, the strangeness of the COVID world we're living in but, overall, good.
Kim Forrester :It is a time where we all need to reach for a little bit more mindfulness, I think, in our lives. And I think it's timely that we have you on the show here today. Let's start with that word, mindfulness, because I think it's one of those buzzwords that we've certainly all heard but I'm not sure that all of us fully understand what exactly it means. What is mindfulness, Elise?
Elise Bialylew :It depends who you ask. There's lots of different definitions. I like to go back to the traditional definition which was really described 2500 years ago in the Buddhist texts, and this is the word - in Pali - the word Sati, which means ... it's defined as to familiarise oneself or to remember. And so it's really about familiarising ourselves with the mind and also a remembering of where our awareness is. Remembering to be present; remembering 'Hang on, where is the here and now?'. Because the way our brains operate is that, for whatever reason - and there are evolutionary reasons around this - the brain is constantly being flicked off into the future, planning, or often getting caught in the past. And so it is this effort that we require to train our minds to reside more fully in the present moment. And as it turns out, science has supported the fact - what monks have known for thousands of years - that when we actually do this, we become happier because we're less caught up in the unnecessary worries and ruminations. So mindfulness is really this practice of learning how to pay attention in the present moment. It's cultivating this clear awareness so that we can see more clearly and respond more effectively in everyday life.
Kim Forrester :So that word 'presence'. You know, for decades, I heard that word; I was encouraged to be more present. And I truly don't think I understand it now. How does being present differ from our usual experience of life? Does it feel different, Elise, when we are truly present in the moment?
Elise Bialylew :Yeah. I think part of that is, if you think about us as humans, there's this mind-body thing going on. And in western medicine, these two have been separated; so the mind, and the body. Realistically, there's no separation there. But from a practical level, this concept of presence - I think everyone can relate to this idea of going for a walk, maybe after work when it's a sunset, and you're walking down the beach and it's so beautiful around you yet you're lost in your own thinking. You're really ... you're actually not present. You're present to the distractions, and the stresses, and the worries. And some may argue, 'Well, that's helpful because I'm problem solving while I'm going for a walk.' And yes, that may be true. But the problem is that most of us don't have the control of our minds. So, i.e. when we go to bed and we want to go to sleep, our minds are actually taking charge of us. They're running through lists. And we're not actually present. We're jumping ahead into the future. We're worrying, we're planning. So presence is really about bringing the mind and the body together, in this moment, so that we can live our lives - actually be present to our lives - rather than always falling ahead into the next moment, where we're actually missing our lives. And I think a really key concept here is around the choice. You know, this is a skill to be present. And how wonderful to be able to have a mind that is serviceable, as they say in the traditional speak, where you can actually decide, 'Okay, now I want to do problem solving with my mind. So I'm going to consciously go for a walk by the sunset, but I'm going to use that time to problem solve.' Versus, 'I'm going to actually be fully present and absorb the goodness and the beauty of the sunset.' So there is a big difference between living with presence and living without presence. And that's really what mindfulness training is about. And it's also - coming back to the meaning of this word Sati, to remember - the key is that we need to develop this awareness to catch ourselves when we are lost in thinking, so that we do have a choice. So for example, I've got two young kids and I run a business. I'm very busy, and there's a lot going on all the time. But when I'm being mindful with my one year old, I'm consciously coming to that interaction, and I'm saying, 'Right, I'm dropping the worries. I'm dropping the planning. I'm fully immersed in this moment. I'm fully paying attention, fully available to her, watching with curiosity as she plays.' And the interaction is so much more present and so much richer. And on the receiving end, she is receiving so much more from me as a mother. So that's a little bit about this concept of presence.
Kim Forrester :So it sounds to me what you're saying is that mindfulness or presence is about having our mind - our thoughts - reside in the same time and space as our body.
Elise Bialylew :Yeah. Or you could say, recognising when our mind is going off into thinking about other things that aren't relevant to this particular moment. And identifying that, recognising that, letting go of those thoughts and bringing your attention back into the here and now. Back to what you're actually doing. So it's like the mind is constantly wanting to time travel, and it's this process and this training of being aware of what the mind is doing in any particular moment. And then bringing it back. Another example that just came into my mind that could be helpful for the listeners is thinking about flying - aeroplane flying. So many people can be afraid of flying. So you take off and you suddenly hit turbulence. And what's going on in this particular moment is bumpiness. But the mind immediately catapults into fear about the future. 'What could this mean? Are we going to crash?' And you've set off this whole cascade of physiological responses of the fight or flight. So actually, you're way ahead of where things are at and you're causing anxiety and stress on the body and the mind. And if you practice mindfulness, then you could bring your attention to just being present to the sensations, rather than adding on the story of what it all means. Just okay, can you feel the bumpiness? Can you tune into your breath? So really coming back here into this moment, into this body, rather than getting lost in the stories that the mind likes to proliferate about.
Kim Forrester :That sounds incredibly powerful. But tell me this, Elise. Let's say we're using mindfulness to get present and what we find in this moment is anger, or grief, or some other really painful emotion. Is mindfulness actually benefiting us in those cases?
Elise Bialylew :That is such a brilliant question. And I think it's a really important question, because there's kind of two answers here. And this is becoming more of a conversation, now, in the in the mindfulness space. So the first thing is that, people that have suffered significant trauma in their lives - so from a long time ago, that has not been dealt with - when they come into the present moment and they calm the nervous system, exactly what you're saying can happen. They can actually come in contact with this old trauma that hasn't been resolved, and they can sort of become re-traumatised. So for people that have experienced significant trauma that hasn't been dealt with, I would say, it's really important - those kind of people - would not just suffice to use a mindfulness app. Like, you would really need to find a skilled teacher that, ideally, is either a psychologist that is very educated in the mindfulness field, or a mindfulness teacher that has some psychological background and trauma-sensitive background. So that's one thing. And for those people that are wondering, 'Oh, well, what if I've had trauma, I don't even know it?' I would just say that if you sit, and you start meditating, and there's very difficult feelings that come up that feel a bit overwhelming, that would be a red flag. And it might not mean you've got unresolved trauma, but it would be a red flag to just go and get adequate support and find more of an interactive teacher that you can work with. If you haven't suffered trauma - now, what's interesting here is that often, when we do practice mindfulness and come into the present moment, we do come into contact with difficult feelings. And I think one of the big misconceptions about mindfulness and meditation is that it's a practice that we do to bliss out, or attain some particular state that feels really good. What I'm talking about when I talk about mindfulness is the cultivation of an awareness that actually helps us become more connected to ourselves, live more authentically, live really close to our truth. And I believe that that's really how we live the most flourishing happy lives. So if you are coming in contact with anger or fear or grief, that's not necessarily going to feel great but there's so much growth that happens when you meet these things. And when you avoid them, they catch up with you over time anyway in different forms. So I think we're all very good at avoiding difficult feelings but there is so much value in actually meeting these feelings in a skillful way. And that is really where your personal growth and development comes. And it's not just for the sake of growing. It's actually for the sake of your happiness and fulfilment, and getting to the end of your life and looking back and going, 'I've really lived what's true. I've been in a relationship that really is satisfying. I've done work that's really meaningful.' Because you've stayed close to what your true feelings are.
Kim Forrester :So what I hear you saying there is that, even if we find unpleasant or painful emotions in there, mindfulness helps us be aware of them, right? Recognise them, process through them with or without support. And that in itself is a step towards more fulfilment and greater happiness.
Elise Bialylew :Yeah, absolutely. And I think also greater courage, greater creativity. Because it's only when you learn how to be with the difficult, that you can grow and discover what is possible for yourself. So I know for myself and for the many people that I've worked with, courage and healthy risk-taking has definitely been a run-on effect of developing what Pema Chodron - who's a very famous meditation teacher - calls discomfort resilience. Which I love. I love that term. It's like, you know, in life there are going to be situations where there are difficult things that come up and we might have a choice; we can move away from those difficult situations. But as humans, we are all, without fail, going to experience very difficult challenges that we can't get out of and there's not going to be a choice. So we're going to have to meet these challenges with some kind of inner toolbox and a level of resilience, so that we can grow rather than fall apart. And I think, just as you don't show up to a marathon without training, I believe you shouldn't show up to life without developing some kind of inner toolkit to meet the inevitable challenges. And some of those challenges are going to be inner; the feelings, the feeling states. And then some of them are going to be outer; the losses, the grief, the challenge, the disappointment.
Kim Forrester :Over the past few decades, in particular, an incredible body of research has arisen around the benefits of mindfulness. Can you share with my listeners, now, just briefly, what science says about mindfulness and why it's so good for us?
Elise Bialylew :Yeah. So as I contemplate answering that, I think to myself, 'What piece of research should I share amidst the literally thousands of papers that are coming out?' I think the first thing to say is that, we know that the brain now changes itself. And this is pretty common knowledge now; that we talk about this concept of neuroplasticity - that I believe your listeners will probably be familiar with - which is that, you know, the brain adapts and changes throughout a lifetime based on what we are doing, and the choices that we're making, and the things that we're doing repetitively. And this has a positive and a negative implication. You know, if you're playing video games regularly, then the science shows that it actually enhances anti-social behaviours. So, but if you're choosing to do positive things with your brain and your life, then that's having a positive reinforcement and it's growing these skills and these positive traits and tendencies. So the research around mindfulness shows very clearly that, if we engage in mindfulness on a regular basis over a period of time, it can literally change the shape of the brain - the actual architecture of the brain - and the function of the brain in ways that are really helpful. So in the domain of focus and attention, which is becoming an increasingly essential skill for us to develop in our lives because of the challenge to attention which we have through technology. And it's really becoming essential for us to be our own inner controllers of our attention rather than just being completely open to the assault that we have on our attention. So mindfulness has been shown to transform areas of the brain that are related to focus. And then another interesting area of the brain that mindfulness has really been shown to enhance is the area related to our ability to manage emotions more effectively. So this is called emotional regulation. But another piece of research that's really interesting - I think we know it's anxiety is such a common problem now amongst so many people. And there was one really interesting piece of research which showed that people that did a two month mindfulness programme, the amygdala, which is the fear centre of the brain, essentially, had reduced in size after a couple of months of mindfulness. And the implication here is that, you know, that means it's not being used as much; it's less worrisome. So we know that people that suffer from chronic anxiety have larger amygdala. It's like you can be a sculptor of your own brain to some extent. And we know, what we practice grows stronger. So if we're practising these particular mental training practices, then we're growing our brain in really helpful ways. Then, just maybe one other piece of research that is a different angle, which I think speaks to the very deep transformation that can happen through these practices, is on the level of gene expression. And so there was a study by Richie Davidson, who has been part of some of the programmes I'm offering. And he's one of the leading scientists in this space of meditation and the brain. And he found that a day of mindfulness training actually had an impact on how our genes express themselves. And we know that genes code the different proteins in the body. And so, specifically, it was related to the coding of inflammatory proteins. And so what this means is, we know inflammation in the body is bad; it's a risk factor for lots of different chronic illnesses. We want to keep inflammation in the body down. And so this study that looked at a day of mindfulness, they took blood tests from people, and they found that the genes that were producing these inflammatory proteins had actually turned down. So, as he said, when I interviewed him, you know, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There is so much that we don't know yet. But what we do know is that this practice - that seemingly from the outside looks like a whole lot of nothing, and is a sort of strange practice of using your mind in a particular way - actually echoes and ripples through the body down to the level of genetics.
Kim Forrester :It really hints at the extent to which our mind and body are entwined, correct? And we simply don't have that full understanding.
Elise Bialylew :100%. And I think that as we move forward in time, this split between the mind and the body is going to dissolve even more. I think it's a really unfortunate splitting, that has had a really unfortunate impact on the way we understand our health and well being. Because we just know that what we're doing with our minds, echoes in the body and literally makes us less healthy. So we need to take charge of the mind - not just for the mind's sake, but also for the body's well being.
Kim Forrester :And you touched a little bit on the practice of mindfulness earlier on. You were talking about, you know, simply walking along the beach in the sunrise. I think generally people associate focusing on the breath with mindfulness. But are there other ways that we can actually practice mindfulness that don't necessarily have anything to do with focusing on the breath?
Elise Bialylew :Yeah, look, the breath in many ways is just ... we talk about it as an object for attention. So, you know, there's this idea that the mind, as described in the ancient texts, is like the monkey mind. So by nature, and I'm sure you know, if your listeners just sit for ... you put a timer on for 30 seconds and just observe what happens to your mind. You can see it's literally a monkey, going from thought to thought to thought. It's chaos in there. And that's one of the first things that people that begin meditation realise; it's actually quite overwhelming because if you've never done meditation, then you've never actually paid attention to what's going on in the mind. And people, the first thing that comes out is, 'Oh, my God, I've got so many thoughts. It's kind of overwhelming.' Because you're, for the first time, you're actually becoming aware of what's going on in your mind. So coming back to your question around the breath - we need an object to focus on to keep our attention steady, because the mind otherwise does monkey mind. So the breath is just one example of an object that you can focus on. You can choose anything. So it might be sounds; you can sit and just focus your attention on sounds in the environment. And every time you realise that you've lost attention on the sound and the next thing you know, you're thinking about what you're cooking the kids for dinner or the deadline you've got coming up, then you let it go and you bring it back to tuning into sounds. So it really doesn't just have to be the breath. The breath is traditionally one of the most common ways that we get in, but it can be sound, it can be walking and focusing on the sensation of your feet. It's anything that can be an anchor for your attention. And then bringing that into everyday life, where it becomes very interesting, is even in conversation. So if you think about, when we speak with someone, what is usually happening is we're not fully paying attention. We're listening, but we're already coming up with our own input and arguments. Or we might have completely lost focus on what the person is saying and we're actually lost in thinking. So being mindful in conversation is actually using the other person's voice and presence as the anchor of our attention. You can be mindful from the minute you wake up till the minute you go to sleep. And in fact, that is the invitation; that is the goal here. The goal of meditation is to bring this quality of present-moment, clear awareness into everyday life, not just in your meditation practice.
Kim Forrester :So I was going to ask, can we mindfully watch TV? Can we mindfully drive the car? And you were saying there that that's feasible, if we train ourselves to be that mindful, that often?
Elise Bialylew :Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely we can. And you know, even when you talk about TV or even social media, absolutely. And I think it's really important to be mindful when we're doing this for two reasons. Number one, many of us have social media addictions and, you know, end of the day tired, scrolling through Facebook, numbing out, wasting 40 minutes in a heartbeat. And when we have mindfulness training, we have these moments of waking up where we catch ourselves and we say, 'Hang on, what am I doing right now? Is this helpful? What do I really want to be doing?' It's like you've got this inner witness that sits on your shoulder and is monitoring what you're doing as you're doing it, and putting the question forward, you know, 'Is this helpful? Is this what's called for? Is this aligned with what really matters to me?'
Kim Forrester :In your experience, Elise, though, are there activities when we're just starting out on this mindfulness journey - are there activities that can increase our mindfulness more than others? For instance, is it more likely for us to become mindful if we are walking along the beach looking at a sunrise? If we are going out and placing our feet on the ground and nature? Do you feel that there are particular practices or activities that are more likely to inspire mindfulness in us?
Elise Bialylew :Absolutely. I think that there are also activities that demand your attention. So for example, tightrope walking, or slacklining, or you know, mountain bike riding, where if you don't pay attention - if your attention is not in the present moment - you're going to smash into a tree or you're going to fall off. So there are specific activities that you can do that demand this present-moment awareness and attention. But the thing is, how do you get that quality of awareness and attention when you're not in a kind of - not life threatening situation - but a situation where if you're not paying attention, you're going to harm yourself physically? I also understand your question in terms of, is walking in the forest going to help you be more mindful than being caught in peak hour traffic in the city? Yes, absolutely. Because I think it naturally calls your senses, it wakes up your senses, it brings you very naturally into the present moment. However, we also know that if you're really preoccupied, you could go for a forest walk and really walk through that forest and be completely caught in your own head. So, you know, I think the real key here is that having a meditation practice, which is a sort of designated time that you're actually training in this skill - because it really is a skill - is kind of a non-negotiable if you want to develop this. And it doesn't have to be 30 - 40 minutes or an hour a day. It can be, as this famous Tibetan Master said, short moments, many times. You know, it's it doesn't have to be an hour of time in a row. But just like, I think the gym analogy, the physical fitness analogy, is really helpful here. It's very tangible, and it's really applicable. This is a skill that we can become better at. It's a form of mental fitness and it's really training the mind to be fit; to be present. Just like training muscles to be stronger. So just like you go to the gym, you do your 30 minute workout to build up that endurance and energy so that then, you know, you're meeting life with greater vitality, energy, you can run around with your kids, you can be more alert and focused at work. Same thing with meditation. I don't believe that you can truly live mindfully just by bringing it to everyday life. You do need the training.
Kim Forrester :Let's go there. Because I think that's a really important part of this conversation. You have got two young children, a business, you run the Mindful in May campaign. How on earth do you find at least 10 minutes a day to sit and practice mindfulness? What kind of practical tips can you give to my listeners who might say, 'Look, there's just no way I have space in my life for 10 minutes of sitting still'?
Elise Bialylew :What I want to say first of all, is that people tend to be very black and white. It's like, 'I'm gonna have to do this every day. If I miss a day, I'm a failure. I may as or throw it out.' And my whole approach is really emphasising self-compassion. And also emphasising starting off small. I don't think it's ever a situation of I don't have 10 minutes. It's not actually about time. It's about prioritising and values. You know, it's really about what matters most to you. But initially, it might be that someone just does one minute a day, or five minutes a day. You just need to get into it in whatever way works for you. And I think one of the essential things is finding a very good teacher because, just like yoga, there's a lot of variance in the kind of teachers that you can find. And that makes a hell of a big difference to how you're learning, and how engaged you are, and the results you're seeing. But to answer your question directly, again, there's a misconception that you have to do X amount of minutes in a row, X amount of times a day. You need to find a way to make this practice work for you, particularly when you're getting into it. And then I find it becomes a self-perpetuating cycle where, if you make it work for you and you start to feel the benefits, you're more inclined to put effort and energy in. You actually want to do more, rather than feeling like this is a burden and this is just another thing I have to add on to my list. So, for me personally, I mean, it's changed over time depending on my particular life situation. But I can say, also speaking to the sort of black and white thing, you know, there have been times in my life where, you know, giving birth, just having a baby, having a newborn and managing a toddler, and having a business to sort of keep alive on the side, where finding 10 minutes a day was literally really difficult. And so that's when my practice turned, for a number of weeks, more into ... I mean, having a newborn is a whole mindfulness retreat in itself, really. So I was just making sure that, when I was in that, you know, I was really bringing that quality of awareness. But I don't think I may have been able to do that had I not had an established practice. So I think that - the point I'm making here is that - whoever you are, whatever stage of practice you're at, there are going to be times in your life where you do slip. You might get sick, you might have your crazy times and your family and that's okay. I think if you're predominantly doing it and initially create a very solid habit, then when you fall off track, you just naturally come back to it. Because it's a non negotiable. It becomes just so deeply part of what your brain does that not a lot of time will pass before you get back on track.
Kim Forrester :The Eudaemonia podcast, Elise, is all about flourishing. So I'd love to know, from your personal experience, how has your life been enhanced since you adopted mindfulness as a practice?
Elise Bialylew :This is a really big question because I can honestly say to you that it has enhanced every part of my life, from my parenting, to my relationships, to my work and my choices, to the way I work, to the ability that I have to push myself out of my comfort zone and feel that I have a trust in myself, and an ability to have this kind of courage that I didn't have before. I mean there really isn't a part of my life that hasn't been touched by this. It's practical. It's like, falling asleep at night. I have techniques that just help me. If I wake up in the middle of the night, I have ways of of managing that. You know, when my four year old was a bit younger and then we were going through the tantruming and the in the terrible twos, it was just invaluable. I don't even know what I would have done without it, just as a way of meeting her with presence and knowing what to do in those moments. And being an entrepreneur and running a business, you end up doing so many things and you can so often get overwhelmed, and prioritising is so key. And I feel like it's really helped there as well. And managing teams and managing difficult conversations. One of the big ones is emotional reactivity. When we're emotionally triggered in an interaction with someone - be that work or family - having skills to navigate that more effectively, more wisely, to get better outcomes. So I can honestly say there is not an aspect of my life that it hasn't touched. And that's really why I honestly am so passionate about this. I left my career in psychiatry to really do this full-time because I just see it as a must-have skill for all of us. I really do.
Kim Forrester :So extraordinary that such a simple practice can have such far-reaching benefits in our lives, Elise. My final question for you is one that I ask every guest on the Eudaemonia podcast. Can you offer a simple morning reminder? Now, normally I ask for a mantra or an affirmation. In your case, I imagine it might be a practice that my listeners can start using today to help them live more mindfully. What is step number one?
Elise Bialylew :Well, I love this. I've got this practice I call the 'ten by three'. And I wrote about it in my book, The Happiness Plan, which is really a one month guidebook that gives people daily practices to bring mindfulness into your life. But this is a really simple one. So it's the ten by three. So what it is, is, as soon as you wake up in the morning, whether it's with an alarm or without an alarm, take 10 breaths. So you're really sensing the breath, you're not thinking about the breath, you're actually bringing your awareness into the body, and feeling the breath. And you're counting 10 breaths. So at the end of each out breath, there's a small pause, and you'll count one and then two, up to 10. And you're really allowing the breath to breathe as it is - not manipulating it, letting it to settle into its own rhythm. So you pay attention. Sense 10 breaths and then, at the end of that, bringing to mind three things that you're grateful for. And this practice I do every day before I do anything; before I go to my phone, before I go to my children. And it's just really simple, but it kind of gets your mind into the right gear for the day.
Kim Forrester :Elise Bialylew, that is such a beautiful practice. And one we can all do. Like you say, when we open our eyes, before we reach for our phone to check the social media feed, do 10 breaths and three things we're grateful for. Elise, if people want to find out more about you, the work you do, your amazing book and the Mindful and May campaign, which I assume will be running next year in 2021, where can people go to find out more?
Elise Bialylew :They can either go to the Mindful in May website and get on the waitlist, and also find out about other online mindfulness programmes that I offer in between Mindful in Mays. So that's www.mindfulinmay.org. Or my other website, www.mindlifeproject.com.
Kim Forrester :Elise Bialylew, it's just been such a pleasure having you on the Eudaemonia podcast. I'm grateful for you, and your time, and your work, and your wisdom. Thanks for coming along.
Elise Bialylew :Thanks so much, Kim.
Kim Forrester :As the poet, Rumi once wrote, 'Look past your thoughts, so you may drink the pure nectar of this moment.' You've been listening to the Eudaemonia podcast. If you'd like to learn more about how to live a truly flourishing life, please subscribe and check out www.eudaemoniapod.com for more inspiring episodes. I'm Kim Forrester. Until next time, be well, be kind to yourself, and enhance the moments of your life through mindfulness. Transcribed by https://otter.ai