Eudaemonia

Honesty, with Dan Munro

August 11, 2021 Kim Forrester Season 11 Episode 3
Eudaemonia
Honesty, with Dan Munro
Show Notes Transcript

Daniel Munro is a Confidence Coach, best-selling author, and Director of both The Inspirational Lifestyle Ltd and The Brojo. His latest book is titled The Naked Truth: Using Shameless Honesty to Enhance Your Confidence, Connections and Integrity. In this episode, Kim Forrester chats with Dan about why integrity, truthfulness, and shameless honesty are vital elements of greater well-being and a thriving life.

This episode is made with love and without expectation. If you like what you hear, you may consider supporting Kim's work at buymeacoffee.com. 

Kim Forrester (00:00):
Around the world and throughout history, honesty is one of the most universally valued human traits. And yet research shows that any of us claiming to be completely sincere and truthful may well be lying to ourselves. You're listening to the Eudaemonia podcast. I'm Kim Forrester and today we're going to hone our understanding of what it means to be honest.

Intro (00:28):
Welcome to Eudaemonia, the podcast that is all about flourishing. Plugin, relax, and get ready for the goodness as we explore the traits and practices that can help you thrive in life ... with your host Kim Forrester,

Kim Forrester (00:48):
Dan Munro is a competence coach, best-selling author, and director of both the Inspirational Lifestyle Limited and the BroJo. Dan offers coaching with a particular focus in the areas of people pleasing, building self-confidence, and forming genuine relationships. His latest book is titled The Naked Truth - Using shameless honesty to enhance your confidence, connections, and integrity. It's a pleasure to be chatting with Dan today to explore the importance of integrity and truthfulness, and to learn how shameless honesty can help us live a more flourishing life. Dan Munro, welcome to the Eudaemonia podcast. It's a delight to have you here with me today. How are things with you?

Dan Munro (01:33):
Yeah, I'm having a pretty good day today. So I'm feeling kind of energetic and stuff, which is unusual since having a kid. So I'm liking it.

Kim Forrester (01:41):
Awesome! Now your book, The Naked Truth, is all about honesty. And as I was reading its pages, I was confronted, and I was discomforted, and I was also inspired in many ways. But let's start with a very important distinction - what is the difference between truthfulness and honesty?

Dan Munro (01:59):
I think the simplest way to put it is that truthfulness is about reporting the facts. It's about, you know, what you express being objectively accurate. So if I'm being truthful, I'm reporting something that, say, a scientist could confirm as true, perhaps. Whereas honesty is much more ... it is truthfulness in a sense, but it's truthfulness about what is happening inside me, as opposed to objective facts. It's more like a subjective truth. It's what I believe and think and feel, as opposed to what is in terms of other people can confirm it. Let's say someone comes up to you and asks for your credit card details. Truthfulness would be giving them your credit card details and honesty would be saying, "I don't want to tell you that". And it's just as true, but it's true about what's going on inside you. It's actually one of the great distinctions for helping people who struggle with being more honest, as you can actually talk about the struggle itself without actually talking about the truth. So I could say, like, "There's something I want to say to you, but I'm too scared to say it." That's honesty, but it's not telling you the true facts. So I'm still being as honest as I possibly can be with my current levels of courage and sense of safety, or even ability to put things into words, but I'm not actually telling you what the raw facts are - the data, the truth - because I just can't right in this moment. I don't have the ability, but that's still 100% honesty. That's as honest as I possibly can be.

Kim Forrester (03:27):
That's actually really empowering Dan, because it means that if we are in a moment where we don't really feel safe, or we don't feel ready to share the truth about a situation, we can still be honest and we can still say, "I am not ready", or "I'm not in a space to do so". What's interesting though, in your book, is that you write, there are three levels of honesty. You say there's weak honesty, there's accurate honesty, and there's powerful honesty. So honesty itself has different levels. What are the differences between each of these levels and which ones do you think we should aspire to on a daily basis?

Dan Munro (04:03):
Well, these levels kind of just describe areas on a spectrum. There's no, like, clear line between them. But basically, I think there's a clear line between honesty and dishonesty. There's a clear line between knowingly saying something that is untrue versus various degrees of truth. So once you enter the realm of honesty, congratulations, it's hard enough to get there. You know, I think that ... I'm not actually a huge Jordan Peterson fan, but the chapters of one of his books was 'Be honest or at least don't lie'. And I really love that statement. Like at least stay on the realm of honesty, even if it's weak, even if it's vague, even if it's barely comprehensible, but it still aligns somewhat with what you believe is true. It's better stay silent than to lie, in my opinion. But in terms of those three levels, weak honesty is basically, what you're saying does align with what you're thinking or feeling or believing, but only just, and very vaguely. And often you might be describing something subjective as objective. For example, this is where being judgemental would come in. So if I say, "You're too fat", I mean, who am I to judge what fat is? And that's not really what's going on in my head. What's really going on in my head is, you know, if I was to be really honest, I'd say, I'm being judgmental about you right now. When I say I'm too fat, that's a very vague connection to what's really going on inside me. In fact, if I was being really honest, I'd say I have these deep insecurities about body image and I'm projecting that onto you right now. That would be powerful honesty.

Kim Forrester (05:41):
Yeah. Wow. That is powerful.

Dan Munro (05:42):
Yeah. Well I mean, you have to even know what you're thinking to be able to say it. That's like this whole new level. So weak is like, I'm somewhere in the realm of talking about the truth. At least I'm not pretending that I haven't noticed your body and had judgements about it, but I'm really quite ... I'm also like not very vulnerable here. I'm just talking about something like it's a fact when actually it's an opinion. And that would be weak. Whereas accurate would be at least talking about the raw data that we kind of mentioned before. So instead of saying, "You're too fat", I might say something like, "I notice that you seem to have put on weight since we last spoke." And I'm not saying any value judgements about that. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just kind of reporting the facts as I see them. And then powerful honesty is not just reporting the facts, but giving people insight into their hidden narrative and emotions that you've got behind what you're saying. Like, I think the best way to talk about powerful honesty would be to reveal the intentions behind what you're saying. So I, right now, I'm saying all the stuff and my intention is to convince people that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to honesty, right? Like that's what's hidden behind what I'm saying, right now, as you and I speak. Plus I'm also a genuine desire to help people. I know this stuff really improves lives. So I'm kind of almost anxious to convince you that it's the way to go and it's worth experimenting with. So there's a bit of that driving what I'm saying as well. So that's what I'd call powerful honesty, where you get to see behind the curtain. Like you're basically in my head at this point. There's nothing left to hide, but I'm also not apologetic or shameful of it. I'm just reporting it as it is. Like it's the most normal thing in the world, which it is, of course.

Kim Forrester (07:32):
There is huge vulnerability in powerful honesty, Dan, and I'm not sure that many of us are used to that level of vulnerability. So let's go here - my listeners, I know are incredibly thoughtful people, good people, that almost certainly consider themselves to be largely honest. However you say that there are hidden faces of dishonesty that we need to be aware of. And I do wonder if we're not aware of them because it asks us to be vulnerable. What are the subtle ways, Dan, that we live dishonestly?

Dan Munro (08:07):
Well, you kind of nailed it there, which is, I mean, vulnerability is one of the kind of key fears here. If there's anything you say or do that's risk averse, is one way to start looking at it, odds are you're gonna start slipping into some form of dishonesty. And I think the key one I focused on in the book and in my life - you know, my life's work is helping people with the form of dishonesty that we call 'being nice'. It's even got big professional names, like Nice Guy Syndrome or People Pleasing Syndrome. And the gist of it is, anything you say or do that has the primary intention of controlling someone else's emotions, but you're not honest about that intention. And that covers a huge range of what people consider themselves to be good people. It actually covers quite a vast range of their behavior. Like they wouldn't do it if they weren't trying to manipulate someone's emotions. And if you use that as a definition, you look at what you do throughout the day and go, "Holy, sh*t, I'm actually kind of fool of sh*t a lot of the time.

Kim Forrester (09:13):
This is where you confronted me, because I am a recovering people pleaser and I consider myself to aspire to be a good person. To be told that my people pleasing was actually a manipulation, which is entirely true, it was also incredibly confronting. So you are very clear, Dan, that as you moved away from people-pleasing and into this sort of bold honesty, it created a lot of discomfort in your life. So I guess the question is, why bother? Why bother with honesty if it's going to create this discomfort? And I'll ask it this way, how has your life flourished since you retired your people pleasing ways, more or less, and chose honesty over niceness?

Dan Munro (10:02):
Yeah. Well, that's the selling point really? I mean, in a word, confidence. It's as simple as that. This is what I'm really trying to get across in the book as well, is that all of your confidence issues - and everybody's got them no matter what sort of profile they've got on Facebook, they've all got them - it's really directly and almost exclusively related to how honest you are. So when you're dishonest, there's a key thing that's happening. Let alone all the problems that it causes like people can't trust you, you build false relationships, you get yourself into a career that sucks because you just kind of following the path of least resistance. Let's just put those aside as if they're small problems. And yet they're actually huge. The problem with everyday dishonesty is, essentially, it's a form of bullying yourself. It's a form of telling yourself to shut up. One way to imagine it is, like, imagine every time you don't say what you really want to say, what you're really thinking, or you don't show your feelings accurately, you put on a smile when you're actually feeling sad, anything like that, any form of dishonesty, whatever the truth was about you at the time, you're telling that to shut up. You're saying that's not worth sharing. That it's not valid. "Be quiet." Imagine if someone else was doing that to you, the same frequency that you do it to yourself. Imagine if you had someone walking alongside you all day to say, "No, you can't say that. Shut up. That's not worthwhile. You're full of sh*t. Don't talk." I mean, that would be, we'd consider that to be horrific level of bullying. And yet most people are doing this to themselves. And that is the problem with dishonesty. Now honesty is basically validation. You say, "You know what, whatever I think, whatever I feel, whatever I believe, it doesn't mean that it's valuable to other people necessarily, but it's worth saying." And when you do say it, that confirms that it's worth saying. It doesn't matter, actually, how you feel about it. Even if you are ashamed or nervous, when you say it, you're like, "Well, I guess I'm supporting it because I just said it." It's kind of like, if you vote for a politician, then you must be supporting them. Cause you just voted, right? So what changed for me was, I think, this was the revelation. When I started being honest, there's just this weight started lifting off me that I didn't even know was there. You know, like, if you've been carrying a backpack for a long time and then you take it off and you're like, "Oh, this is what it feels like to have it off." You know, you've forgotten. Well, I don't think I'd ever taken that weight off until I started - it was about my mid twenties - I started just doing the social experiment with being really honest. And it was just this lightness. Like, I don't have to remember anything. I don't have to remember, like, how different people see me. I don't have to do that chameleon thing where I adjust to each person and try to keep track of what my different performances are. And like, when I tell a story, I don't have to worry that somebody else there was actually there and they're going to deny the embellishments that I've added to the story. Or any of that stuff that used to, like, give me so much anxiety throughout the day. This 'getting caught' anxiety. After a long time of being honest, the things that like ... for a start, I used to have chronic anxiety and insomnia. And I just thought that was, like, a physical condition. Honesty obliterated both of those things. I can't remember the last time I was anxious and I ... well, until I had a kid, I slept very well. And now I don't, and I'm pretty sure that's a physical thing. And then I noticed, like, I used to try so hard to make people like me. And I'd have an alright hit rate, but it was a huge effort, you know? Like, I'd look calm on the outside, but inside I'm just all gears turning; an effort all the time, constant assessment, constantly coming up with good things to say and do that would give it like a good response. Just a huge effort. I went down to almost zero effort. And just, like, I watch myself talk now with no planning. It's a really fascinating experience. Like, right now, as I'm talking to you, I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth next. Whereas before, that would be pre-scripted completely.

Kim Forrester (14:00):
Yeah. So it's very authentic, very effortless then - the way that you share your honest truth at the moment.

Dan Munro (14:10):
Exactly.

Kim Forrester (14:10):
Now, honesty is ultimately about telling or living the truth. You were saying there, how there's a confidence to be found, there is empowerment to be found, when we just speak what is in our hearts and our minds. But I love the question in your book - how do we know what the truth really is? Before expressing our honest thoughts or opinions, what do we need to be aware of when it comes to our perceived truth?

Dan Munro (14:40):
I think in a nutshell, just lightly holding on to the idea that you could be wrong and that you probably are. But you've got to move forward with it anyway. We often think of thoughts as kind of being like scripts, you know, like words. But they're not. Thoughts are this vague sense inside your head. When you try to put them into words, it's actually quite hard sometimes, which means they weren't originally words in your head. So you don't even really know what it is that you want to say until you start trying to say it. So you can't even hope to identify the truth until you open your mouth and have a crack at it. You're better off to at least get it wrong. And then ... I call it, like, make a mess and clean it up later. So you can start saying, "Well, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Something about, I feel this way, but it tells me this and that. And I'm not really sure where I'm going ..." That's better than trying to come up with this perfect sentence inside your head, which is never going to happen because the truth is only half formed in there.

Kim Forrester (15:40):
Dan, I can tell though, in your work and in your book ,that you're not advocating outright cruelty, right? You're not advocating the use of honesty as a weapon. How can we ensure that when we share our truth, when we are being honest with others, that it is a healthy form of honesty and that it's a compassionate form of honesty?

Dan Munro (16:04):
Well, there's a few different ways. And in the book I talk about these five principles of powerful honesty, which like, if you follow them, then you've given the other person the best possible chance to receive this. Well, you know, for example, one of the main ones is responsibility, which is you own everything about yourself. So think of the difference between "You made me angry," which is victimhood blaming, versus, "When I saw you do that, I got myself angry." Or, say, vulnerability. Especially vulnerability, where you see that you are an equal human to the person you're talking to. Like one of my favorite things that I ever learned when I first became a manager and was trying to be a leader rather than just a manager, was changing the word 'I' to 'we'. Or, sorry, from 'you' to 'we'. So I could say like, "You did this wrong", or I could say, "We need to fix this." Again, a major difference if you're receiving it. And yet those are both true statements. But one's actually more honest. See, if I talk about, like, you did something wrong, I'm basically implying that somehow you can go back into the past and change what you did. That's not true. You can't do that. But if I say, we need to work on this, I'm talking about now, in the future. Talking about something that can actually happen, which is sort of more true. When I think specifically about feedback, giving feedback - telling people what you think of them, essentially, in a way that's not sacrificing honesty at all, but also giving them the best possible chance to receive this well - and one of the first principles there is asking permission. And I don't know how rare this is, but it just doesn't happen very often. You know, most of the time when you get feedback, it's what is called unsolicited feedback. Somebody just gives it to you without asking if you wanted it; without asking if it's helpful right now, without asking how you prefer to receive feedback. They're just try to control you with words and that's automatically going to make you defensive. Whereas if you go to someone, "Look, I've got some feedback for you. It might upset you. Do you mind hearing it?" and they say 'yes' it totally changes the kind of formation of their brain. When it comes to receiving information, they've now said, "I signed up to this". They're going to take responsibility for their reaction to you now. So if you ask permission first - and you respect a 'no', if someone says, "No, I can't hear this right now" and you go, "Okay" and you walk away - you've still been honest. You said, "I wanted to tell you something" so they know that something's there. But you've also respected their lack of permission. The second factor, I guess, once you've got the permission is, targeted and specific. And what this means is you're going to talk about one tiny piece of behavior, and you're going to compartmentalize that away from the person in a sense. So rather than saying, like, "You suck", I might say, "Yesterday, you left the clothes on the floor and that was a real hassle for me." We're just talking about what you did yesterday. I'm not saying you always leave the clothes on the floor because that's not true. You also do other stuff like eat and socialize. So you're not always leaving clothes on the floor. You know, I'm not going to use anything that's not true. I'm just going to say, this is a specific, evidenced thing that took place, and here's how I feel about it. That's all. If you don't care how I feel about it, fine, we move on with our lives. I'm not actually telling you what to do with your life. I'm just reporting my reaction to something you did, essentially. And the sort of third principle is to keep in mind, like, what's most helpful to them. And this requires sometimes asking them, if you don't know them very well or tapping into what you do know about a person. There's different ways to say the same thing. Still being honest, but with some consideration to, like, what works for this person most. And if you're not sure, you ask them. Say, "I've got some feedback for you, how do you like to receive feedback? What's the most helpful way?"

Kim Forrester (20:02):
Let's talk about confrontation and conflict because you actually separate those two concepts in your book, and you maintain that confrontation often prevents outright conflict. And I imagine that's the opposite of what many people think or many people, like me, often fear. How can we approach confrontation as both a tool for honesty and a prevention of all-out conflict?

Dan Munro (20:31):
Well, starting with the end in mind, there is no guaranteed way to prevent conflict. And once you get your head around that and accept that in your heart, it'll go a long way. Because I think a lot of the dishonesty people do is from this hope that, "Hey, maybe I can avoid discomfort completely here." It's going to happen. You get to choose how it happens. It can either be you put something off for ages and it explodes later, or you nip it in the bud early and it's just a little bit uncomfortable. Conflict is not a confrontation. Conflict is how someone feels after being confronted. Now, when I say a confrontation prevents conflicts, I don't mean it's guaranteed to prevent all conflicts in your life. But it's definitely is going to reduce the size of them. You think of the difference between a confrontation where, let's say, we've been dating two months and I say, "Look, you know, the way you've been talking to my mother, I find that disrespectful and I would like you to stop" versus me letting you talk like that to her for 20 years and then exploding and divorcing you.

Kim Forrester (21:31):
Yeah.

Dan Munro (21:32):
Right? That's what I'm talking about. That little thing at the start, where as soon as something bothers you a little bit, you speak up about it and you just go through that little, like, 'I'm going to have to break the rapport and the good times for a little bit here', or 'I don't know how they're going to react so this feels like a bit like risk taking'. If you can go through that, you don't have to deal with the big blowouts later.

Kim Forrester (21:52):
You say very wisely that we have to step into discomfort, we have to have those uncomfortable confrontations, to be truly honest and to live honestly. And we can't always expect a good response when we choose to be honest. That's clear. But Dan, are there ways that we can guarantee that we, as individuals, respond well - respond in healthy and compassionate ways - when others are honest with us?

Dan Munro (22:24):
Yeah. Well put it this way. There's no quick fix to that. That's the deep inner work. You know, if you don't receive the truth well, that's probably like an iceberg. Like, underneath the surface of that, there's all kinds of things going on. There's ego, there's insecurities, there's trauma, there's limiting or false beliefs about how the world should work, and so on. So the number one step is taking responsibility. I got this from the stoicism philosophy more than anything else - nobody else ever actually harms you. The harm happens inside your head. Which means it's your own mind doing it. So one of the first things you can do to be better at receiving the truth, both in the moment and as a general practice, is to keep reminding yourself, like, 'My reaction is my problem. Not theirs. If I'm reacting painfully to something, it's because of my beliefs. It's because of the way I interpreted what was said'. Another way to look at is that there is some value in any form of feedback you get, no matter how horrible it is or how unhelpful it appears. Like, the best-case scenario - or worst-case scenario, even - is, let's say somebody you don't like gives you unfair, inaccurate feedback. In a way, at the very least, you've identified someone who's not a good fit for you. But there's gold in there. Like, I mentioned there was a massive turning point in my life - I mentioned it in the book - and it didn't actually affect me into a couple of years after the event. But I was with a girl that I was desperately crushing on, but of course hadn't been honest about it so I was in that 'friend zone' as they call it. And I was making fun of myself, which is something I did a lot back then. That was one of my forms of people-pleasing, was to make people laugh at me. And, I was doing that. And I used to make people laugh, like even though like inside, I'm dying, you know? And I was doing that and she stopped me and she said, "Do you know what? It's kind of funny, it's a little bit charming, but it's also pathetic." Now I took that really personally. Like, telling a nice guy that he's pathetic is kind of just ... you may as well just stab me in the heart. But I really needed to hear that because I had never thought of it that way. And it was so true. It is pathetic to make fun of yourself and actually mean it. It took me years to kind of ponder that and think about it. But after that, my self-deprecating humor started to taper off because it was never coming from a good place. It was always a kind of cry for sympathy. It was always a kind of a desperate leaking of shame. And she just called it out. Now the way she did it wasn't particularly nice and it wasn't overly helpful. A psychologist would have probably explained it in terms I could have used a bit better, and wouldn't have used the word pathetic. But it was still this little view of me that I couldn't see inside me. You know, I can't see it when I'm in the driver's seat. And that just opened up a whole new way of thinking for me. Like, 'How often is what I'm doing kind of pathetic by my own standards?' And I'm here today in part because of that one little piece of feedback. But mostly because two years later, I finally decided to accept that feedback and see what it meant for me, you know.

Kim Forrester (25:49):
That is so beautiful. Dan, as New Zealanders, where humility is held in very, very high regard, I think we both understand this next concept. You actually write that humility - holding back from your passion, dimming your light - that is a form of dishonesty, you say. And you actually go so far as to say that it's a selfish form of dishonesty. How so?

Dan Munro (26:15):
Well first let's do a couple of definitions. I use humility because that's the word people use in their head, but that's not actually humility. To hide who you are and to hold back your strengths and to, like, dim your light is not humility. It's false modesty. Humility is accepting that you're just a speck in the universe and that you control almost none of it. That's humility. But this is not what people mean when they say that they're humble, or that general New Zealand culture, which I've also seen in other countries, especially kind of Protestant-founded countries like UK and so on. You know, I used to do job interviews, I've been the interviewer, and watched people talk themselves out of the job. You're not even bragging, you're just telling the truth and you won't do it. You know, you're just so ashamed to say, "I'm actually good at that". And it would be true for you to say it. But this idea that we value humility, what we're really valuing is false modesty, which is a 'Keep your head down', that Tall Poppy Syndrome', you know? Don't be seen, don't stand out for things that are actually true about you. And the reason that this is selfish is because everybody misses out on what could be if you didn't do that. For example, I think of what I do as a coach. I've had people confirm that I helped prevent them from committing suicide. I've had people give up jobs that they would have hated to find their true passion. I've helped people form relationships when they felt that they were doomed to never have one. Imagine if I'd held back and didn't do that work? What happens to those people? Where are they now? Well, some of them are dead and their family are grieving. So that's selfish. And you get this ... basically anybody who's holding back from what they know they should be doing, holding back from what they should be saying, the question you ask yourself is,"If I don't, who misses out? What happens?" Even something simple. Let's say you're staying in a sh*t job you don't like instead of, say, going into the one you do, because it's artistic and you've been told that that's not profitable. Which is bullsh*t. There's somebody who might love the job that you're in, but you're in the way. You're taking up their seat, you know?

Kim Forrester (28:30):
Yeah.

Dan Munro (28:32):
And if you were actually pursuing what you wanted, maybe that seat would open up for someone who actually is passionate about what you're doing. So that's selfish.

Kim Forrester (28:40):
Dan. My final question is when I ask every guest on the Eudaemonia podcast. Can you offer a morning reminder - so this may be a practice, a mantra and affirmation - something that can help us all become more honest as we step through our daily lives?

Dan Munro (28:56):
Yeah. Well, it's actually pretty simple, I think. Which is you just ask yourself, "How could I be more honest today?" And whatever that answer to that question is, you try and follow through with it to the best of your ability. Okay, one way to put it as quickly as possible is that the barriers to honesty are twofold - they're either lack of awareness or they're cowardice. So, you either don't know what the truth is, or you do know but you're too scared to say it. And most of the time, that's the issue. So when we're talking about practicing honesty, what we're really talking about is practicing courage - of going to do something you don't feel like doing. That's it. So if you can ask yourself, "What is something I could say that I don't really want to say, but is the truth? What's something I could say today?" You know, "Is there something I could tell my boss, my partner, myself?" Anything. One a day. That's 300 plus a year. You're moving up that spectrum. Plus you're practicing honesty. Every time you try to speak, honestly, you get better at doing it. You know, I'll be kind of shameless here - no false humility. As you've heard me speak and do the powerful honesty stuff, I know how it sounds. You know, I know it's quite convincing. It's very easy to hear me speak and to kind of like ... I don't feel ashamed of what I'm saying. And it gives a sense of confidence. Well, when I first started being honest, it didn't sound like that. It sounded like I was going to throw up. I had my heart beat in my throat, and my face was all red. I was shaking, sweating, stuttering. That's how it started. When you practice a hundred or a thousand times, it doesn't keep sounding like that. You get better at it. You get more articulate, more convincing, more charismatic. All without being fake.

Kim Forrester (30:36):
Dan, you have a series of books, the latest of which is called The Naked Truth. And it delves really, really deeply into this whole concept of shameless honesty. If my listeners want to find out more about you and about your coaching work, the books that you've written, where can they find out more?

Dan Munro (30:53):
All sorts of places. I actually prefer personal contact so emailing me, [email protected] That's my favorite way to get in touch with someone. But of course, if they just want to sort of lerk on the edges and have a look at all my sh*t, www.brojo.org is the website where I post all my stuff. And my books can be found on Amazon. If you just search for my name, you should be able to find that stuff there.

Kim Forrester (31:16):
I really want to thank you from my heart, honestly and sincerely, for sort of stepping into the Eudaemonia circle because the information that you shared in your book and this conversation today, it really has aggravated the edges of me in really powerful and helpful ways. So thank you, Dan, for choosing to be more shamelessly honest, and for inviting us all to follow your example. Thanks for being here today on the Eudaemonia podcast.

Dan Munro (31:45):
You're more than welcome. I thoroughly enjoyed it, Kim. Cheers.

Kim Forrester (31:48):
As the American religious leader, James Faust once said, "Honesty is more than not lying. It is truth-telling, truth speaking, truth living, and truth loving. You've been listening to the Eudaemonia podcast. If you'd like to learn more about how to live a truly flourishing life, please subscribe, check out www.eudaemoniapod.com for more inspiring episodes, or come join me on Instagram @iamkimforrester. I'm Kim Forrester. Until next time, be well, be kind to yourself, and live honestly.